cema: (Default)
cema ([personal profile] cema) wrote2008-01-05 03:32 am

Zebriski point

The point of this whole zebra exercise is, I think, to see what the meaning of the word "know" is. In the original posting, [livejournal.com profile] rezoner suggested there is a cultural difference between what we can call Eastern and Western approaches. In the comments, I saw more versions. Because I have not studied philosophy for a long time (and before learning anything new here I would have first to forget what I was treated to back when), and because I felt like it, I, together with other, perhaps more enlightened but not less playful, LJ friends engaged in a reductio ad absurdum testing of possible borders of the meaning of "know".

And you know what?

[identity profile] spamsink.livejournal.com 2008-01-05 09:08 am (UTC)(link)
Ой, нет. Пойнтов в упражнении как минимум три, и значение слова "знать" - лишь одно из них. Словарное значение русского слова, например, соответствия реальности не требует, так что утверждение "мы не можем знать, чего нет" попросту неверно:

- Леонид Ильич, Христос воскрес!
- Я знаю, мне уже доложили.

- Ты знаешь, что Х купил новую машину?
- Теперь знаю.

Ну и разница в scope тоже даст разные ответы:
1. Да (я вижу "зебру")
2. Нет (я-отвечающий на вопрос понимаю, что я-видящий "зебру" ошибается)
3. Да (я - отвечающий на вопрос здесь и сейчас - знаю, что зебра стоит за стогом)
4. Какое нафиг поле, какая зебра?

Ну и не забудем о разнице между to know that и to know if.

[identity profile] cema.livejournal.com 2008-01-05 09:52 am (UTC)(link)
Обрати внимание, что я в самом начале сказал: the point... is... to see. Иначе говоря, we want to know what it means "to know". Can we ever?

[identity profile] spamsink.livejournal.com 2008-01-05 04:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Sure we can. When it converges.

[identity profile] cema.livejournal.com 2008-01-05 06:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Suppose it does converge. Do we know it converged, or does it just happen? I mean, will we be aware that we finally know what it means ("to know")?

[identity profile] spamsink.livejournal.com 2008-01-05 06:20 pm (UTC)(link)
We will acquire a subconscious awareness (cf.) of it.

[identity profile] cema.livejournal.com 2008-01-05 06:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Aha! So now we can distinguish between awareness and knowledge?

[identity profile] spamsink.livejournal.com 2008-01-05 06:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes we can. There were tests to demonstrate the distinction. A situation was constructed, when the subjects would honestly answer "No" to the question, e.g. "Do you know if there was a circle or a square in the picture you saw?" (e.g. it flashed for single milliseconds between two frames of a movie) but when asked to guess performed statistically better than chance.

[identity profile] cema.livejournal.com 2008-01-05 07:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Good news!

Thus, the word "know" is closely related to the conscious realization of being aware of something.

[identity profile] cema.livejournal.com 2008-01-05 07:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, that's more or less the question in the posting.