War in LJ

[cema]

I wrote to a Lebanese blogger that the primary responsibility of IDF is to defend its citizens, all other considerations are secondary. She replied that I had joined the ranks of war mongers and asked me not to write in her journal any more.

I can do that. She is under a lot of stress and I sympathize.

However, it is exactly this attitude that prevents the Lebanese army from taking control over Hizballah and the Lebanese government from taking control over the country. Now a foreign army has to do it for them, and it is not pretty.

No links.

Update. OK, a link [private].

Update 2006/08/03. Now she has banned me. Just like m_p. :-) Well, at least m_p is out of the danger of war.

Comments

[chitayu-vseh.livejournal.com]

Ditto

"Известно, что без власти Далеко не уйдешь" (с)

[arpad.livejournal.com]

Such an approach is normal for almost every liberal lebanese blog.

You are right. It is exactly this attitude that makes Lebanon nothing but a name on the map.

[cmm.livejournal.com]

right you are.

[cema.livejournal.com]

But how can I explain it to her? OK, now is not the time, bombs falling on her head. But in peaceful times?

Re: Reply to your comment...

[cmm.livejournal.com]

perhaps you cannot.
maybe to her children.
war is like that, I guess.

[cema.livejournal.com]

She is also someone's child.

I think this is a serious problem of the modern education system: they do not teach children to defend themselves, but instead to complain to the authorities.

[sowa.livejournal.com]

I doubt that the education system in Lebanon is so westernized.

I also believe that they all (be it Lebanon, Gaza, Iran or North Korea) unequivocally recognize their own right to defend themselves. They just deny the same right to others. Which is a sensible (and working!) policy, one must admit.

[cema.livejournal.com]

We are talking about Lebanon. It is different from the rest, especially in the urban areas. Very Western.

[sowa.livejournal.com]

May be. Trust you opinion.

Still, the question remains: do they recognize the right of Hezbollah to fire the rockets in response to the bombings?

[cema.livejournal.com]

Persinally, she sounds like this: Hizballah should not fire rockets, IAF should not bomb Lebanon. Whoever is trying to establish a logical connection between the two is a war monger.

So I guess the short answer is no, and the long answer is "no, but".

[sowa.livejournal.com]

Then, this is totally beyond my comprehension. I can hardly treat these two actions as independent.

[cema.livejournal.com]

She is under a lot of stress, with all the bombs falling on her head.

[sowa.livejournal.com]

Yes, I read this argument of yours already.

It sounded rather unconvincing for me initially, but then I realized that it fits well into your educational explanation. Namely, instead of trying to get to a safe place or to fight the enemy (if this is the perception), she complaints over the internet to the whole world. May be.

[cema.livejournal.com]

I do not have a better explanation.

[solomon2.livejournal.com]

You do not understand their logic. It goes like this - Israel should not bomb Lebanon, it should negotiate the release of the soldiers with the Hezbullah instead. That would be peaceful, and who thinks otherwise is a warmonger.

[boris71.livejournal.com]

Cema, your userpic could have been distressing to that person.

Seriously however, each time Israeli get killed, many say - they deserve it. More politically correct of these many say - the cycle of violence should stop.

Now, each time Israeli raise their hand to defend themselves, most of these many would say - yet another act of Israeli agression.

It is all to easy to sympathize from afar. She is probably hearing the bombs. I can easily see that this may paralyze one's mind and one's intellect.

The main problem is that when bombs do not fall, the un-paralyzed intellect has to break out of "we need to break cycle of violence/Israeli agression" infinite loop that leads nowhere.

Evidently that person is just one of great many. Evidently given enough changes in education system it would be theoretically possible to solve the problem.

The real life may prove entirely different.

[e2pii1.livejournal.com]

Возможно надо было с нейтральной позиции с ней разговаривать, т.е. не "я считаю the primary responsibility of IDF is to defend its citizens, all other considerations are secondary" -- а "они отдали приказ вас бомбить потому что они считают the primary ..."

[kroha376.livejournal.com]

I think I know who you're talking about.

[http://users.livejournal.com/mask_/]

Which attitude prevents the Lebanese army from taking control over Hizballah? Do you think there is some relationship between the attitude of this woman and the policy of the Lebanese government? I thought that the only reason the Lebanese government is not confronting Hisballah is that it is afraid to start a civil war with an unclear outcome.

Now a foreign army has to do it for them

I think Israel is not really trying to take control over Hisallah. What it is trying to do is to make the Lebanon to do this. Quite cynically, I would say that the main message to the Lebanon is that the risks and possible calamities of a confrontation with Hisballah are smaller than the risks and calamities of a confrontation with Israel. I think Israeli action is justified, since there is no other way to make the northern border safe. But it is only natural that a Lebanese woman is not happy that she and her countrymen are being punished for not fighting a civil war in order to defend Israeli borders.

[xaxam.livejournal.com]

I left in my LJ a link to the Lebanese newspaper "L'Orient le jour" with the editorial which pretty accurately describes the situation. Of course, it contains a mandatory lip service blaming Israel, but just one sentence which, if deleted, does not affect the argumentation.

In several (non-shii, obviously) quarters of Beirut people were reported waiving Israeli flags.

[http://users.livejournal.com/mask_/]

Waiving Israeli flags? Sounds very unlikely. They might hate Hizbollah, but what would make them to like Israel? And where the hell they could take the Israeli flags from?

[cema.livejournal.com]

Nice source.

I love Robert Fisk, I met him, he's so real.

[cema.livejournal.com]

Возможно, просто не стоило с ней разговаривать. В конце концов, чем она отличается от остальных таких же? Просто неприятно, когда такое вещается на весь мир, и никто не поправит.

Считается, что это как бы частный дневник, а в то же время никакой это не дневник.

[cema.livejournal.com]

My userpic! Yes, transparent ears may confuse people.

She is living under bombardment and is in stress and I would cut her some slack until the war is over. Of course, after the war is over, people will turn to something else, and setting the record straight would not change much.

[kroha376.livejournal.com]

I'm not surprised. I think internet neologism "Fisking" was created to describe a typical left propaganda.

[e2pii1.livejournal.com]

разговаривать стоит чтоб сообщать факты и соображения для нейтральных читателей (если таковые там есть).
Ну и чтоб лучше узнать врага.

[e2pii1.livejournal.com]

Because Israel fight and defeat Hizbollah (which they hate).

[http://users.livejournal.com/mask_/]

Israel ... defeat Hizbollah

You are overoptimistic, in my view.

[cema.livejournal.com]

Ну она всё-таки не воюет, т.е. не сражается с оружием в руках, а человек сугубо гражданский.

[e2pii1.livejournal.com]

Она гражданин враждебного Израилю государства, поддерживающая это государство.
Т.е. враг (хотя и далеко не самый опасный).

[cema.livejournal.com]

Ну, в этом смысле, да. Но только в этом.

[cema.livejournal.com]

Fisking means commenting a text, line by line, and showing its fallacy and utter idiocy. While the term originated among the right side of the blogosphere (since they were fisking Fisk, who is considered to be on the left side), anybody could be fisked.

BTW, Fisk is not typical, he is extreme.

fisking Kroha?

[kroha376.livejournal.com]

It's a blessing that I have such intelligent friends, who can comment on my comments, "line by line, showing its utter idiocy." :)

[cema.livejournal.com]

:-)

[danwinter.livejournal.com]

she is getting to a safer place.

[cema.livejournal.com]

That's good news. Thanks.

[danwinter.livejournal.com]

going to get, rather, as soon as the turn in the queue comes up..
to paris, i think?

[cema.livejournal.com]

I don't know. She isnot writing about that, which is good. She needs to preserve some anonymity and privacy.

[cema.livejournal.com]

Now more. Quote: If you don't want to be called an idiot, think before you speak, and don't get all holier-than-thou on something you know nothing about. Good advice, eh? Oh well. Let's wait until she is out of danger; maybe then I will try to talk to her again.

[kroha376.livejournal.com]

неуместно рассуждать с ней сегодня о причинах и смысле этой войны, заранее известно, что она скажет: мир - это когда стреляют где-то в другом месте...

[cema.livejournal.com]

(This was before I added the flag to my pic.)