Den Beste on Europe and US parties

[cema]

The main difference between the parties when it comes to foreign policy is that the Democrats are willing to smile and nod at the Europeans before ignoring them, whereas the Republicans are more straightforward in expressing their disdain.

I think he is right here.

I think that, as far as the war is concerned, whoever is in the presidential office is going to do essentially the same thing, but what he will say and how widely he will smile to Europeans is another matter. Paradoxically, this might have pushed me towards rooting for a Democratic president (to help Europe to mend its ways with the US and to soothen the scrape marks) precisely because his rhetoric would be, in a sense, counter to his actions. But I do not like politicking and do not like political hypocrisy. Plus, I happen to like the current presidential foreign team, starting with Wolfowitz and other neocons. I am indifferent to Bush, but not prticularly fond of Kerry either.

The result is: if I had been an American citizen, I would have been likely to vote for a Republican president this time.

Comments

?

[email-animal.livejournal.com]

Cema, you scare me sometimes.

Re: ?

[cema.livejournal.com]

I know. I once woke up because an airplane smashed into Pentagon. I am glad it did not have nuclear weapons on board.

Re: ?

[email-animal.livejournal.com]

And liking Wolfowitz is related to it how....?

Re: ?

[cema.livejournal.com]

Accent on being active in the foreign affairs. Choosing allies and friends properly, as well as foes. In the particular case of Saddam Hussein, very few thinkers besides the neocons were on the same page as myself.

This wikipedia page is written with an obvious slant, this one is more neutral. This article in Reason looks at his record from a somewhat unusual point, and this page from an anti-neocon source is remarkable in its way. There is plenty of more material online, of course; choose whatever is to your liking.

Disclaimer: I am not 100% with him on all issues, and obviously it would be rather difficult to find one with whom I would be. But I think his approach is honest.

Re: ?

[email-animal.livejournal.com]

It simply appears to be the wrong page.

Re: ?

[cema.livejournal.com]

Which one?

Re: ?

[email-animal.livejournal.com]

Cema ...very few thinkers besides the neocons were on the same page as myself.

This one. (-:

Re: ?

[cema.livejournal.com]

Well, I obviously have a different opinion, and since we know each other's arguments, there is nothing we can change. Except turning it over. :-)

Re: ?

[email-animal.livejournal.com]

I could also add some snide remarks about this:

Cema: Choosing allies and friends properly, as well as foes.

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[cema.livejournal.com]

Was USSR a proper ally to the USA and the UK in WWII? I think it was. This did not make the stalinist system more acceptable.

Re: ?

[email-animal.livejournal.com]

The question USA was trying to answer was "What is the lesser of
two evils?" In case of WWII, they, no doubt, made the correct decision.
I am not so sure (in fact, I am sure in quite the opposite) about
these days.

Re: ?

[cema.livejournal.com]

We'll see.

In case of WWII, there was no choice: Germany declared war on the US soon after Japan attacked it. A better analogy might be the war with the "barbary pirates", as they are usually called, but I am not sufficiently familiar with that.

Re: ?

[ex-bulatych796.livejournal.com]

Choosing allies and friends properly? I think the US is losing allies with an unprecedented speed. And those are true, time-tested allies, not tiny, banana republic, totalitarian regimes the US likes to befriend every once in a while.

Re: ?

[cema.livejournal.com]

It may well be that the US is losing allies, but that is not the choice they made; I was talking about choosing allies, which is different from oiling the cogs and making the ride together smooth enough. Like I said, I think a Democratic administration would have to do more or less the same things as the present Republican one, but (1) they would have been saying different things and (2) the press would have been biased more towards them than against (although there still would be enough right-wing media people and outlets to put a check on everything the president does or does not do).

As for the time-tested allies, a friend in need etc.

Allies

[ex-bulatych796.livejournal.com]

What allies is the US choosing? Uzbekistan, Pakistan? Poland? Over Germany, France, Belgium, Turkey? Over Spain that already garbage-collected the pro-Bush government? Over the UK, possibly, which may do the same thing soon?

A friend in need? What countries were the first line of defense when the USSR aimed thousands of ICBMs at the US? I guess that WAS the time "in need", wasn't it?! Poland? Bulgaria? Pakistan?

I think you are confusing a bunch of special interests who grabbed the helm while the people aren't looking with the US foreign policy.

Re: Allies

[bsoares.livejournal.com]

US European allies in this war (in alphabetical order): Albania, Britain, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Ukraine.

And, btw, not that it matters much now, but France was hardly US's most reliable ally during the Cold War. It actually left NATO in 1966 (http://www.charles-de-gaulle.org/article.php3?id_article=181) and didn't rejoin until 1993.

Re: Allies

[ex-bulatych796.livejournal.com]

Are you denying that the countries I mentioned are US allies in the "war on terror"?

Re: Allies

[bsoares.livejournal.com]

Now, where did you see me do it? :)

Here's my point:

1. Lots of European allies countries support US on the issue of war in Iraq. If you look at the list, you'll notice a variety of different countries, both in the "old" and in the "new" Europe. You'll also notice that some of the agree with US on the issue, while others simply decided that they can trust US on doing the right thing in this matter. All of them value their relationship with US too much not to offer help (even if it's just a gesture of help) when US asked for it

2. France has had problems aligning with US on many important issues over the last 50 years. The fact that they disagreed on this issue is hardly a huge surprise.

Re: Allies

[ex-bulatych796.livejournal.com]

I asked you a question because you didn't make yourself clear.

If you insist, let's focus on the Iraq war.

Please add up GDPs and standing army sizes and quality for Germany, France, Belgium, and Spain, plus a few other countries in Europe and compare those numbers with the same totals for those of the "allies". That will show you, "lots" is a false friend of an international relations student.

Note how the government changed in Spain recently. Also, note the majority of Italians oppose the Iraq war, and a great number of Britons do too. Blair is in a precarious position at home because he joined the war against Iraq.

Essentially, in Europe only some Eastern European countries support the US invasion almost unquestionably. I am sure their loyalty will be rewarded.

Re: Allies

[bsoares.livejournal.com]

The goverment of each country is elected by the majority of the population. The majority decides what issues are important and how important they are to them by electing the goverment that represents it. So, whatever the opinion polls:

Spain supports the war.
UK supports the war.
Italy supports the war.

Now, what sort of reward to you think Spain, UK, Italy, Netherlands, and Denmark expect to get from the United States? I'm lost on this one.

And what sort of reward to you think the Czech Republic and Poland expects to get from the United States? Good relationship? No doubt. Preferred trade status? Better visa regime? I sure hope so.

If you look at "what ifs", please look at the results of the last German elections and how close the Social Democrats came to losing it. Had they lost it, Germany would have also supported the war. France and Belgium are the only two countries on your list where all major political forces oppose helping US in this war.

Re: Allies

[ex-bulatych796.livejournal.com]

You must be really wanting to make a point if you say Spain supports the war. Ok. Time will tell you better than I.

Re: Allies

[bsoares.livejournal.com]

And the point I'm trying to make is this: there are major political forces in most European countries (any way you look at "most") which support US in this war.