An antifascist war

[cema]

A friend leaned across a bar and said, "You call the war in Iraq an antifascist war. You even call it a left-wing war—a war of liberation. That language of yours! And yet, on the left, not too many people agree with you."

I am glad I do not have to serve drinks in this journal, anyhow. :-)

Comments

[email-animal.livejournal.com]

ACLU.... American Civil Liberties Union... Are you seriously suggesting that it is anything but a liberal organization these days?

Yes, protection of civil liberties should be a business of everyone. Yet, somehow, ACLU has the stigma that no conservative would dare approach. So, returning back from theoretical discussion into the area of reality - yes, ACLU is a liberal organization, and its president, one Nadine Strossen is one of the most consistent liberals I have seen in the US public life.

I used to have a similar disposition. But there are things that hit close, like antisemitism.

I am approaching this as two questions: one about what is tolerable,
another - how I would explain intolerance in liberals. First of all, I never said tolerance was absolute. There are clearly different levels of tolerance in different people, and there are some ideas that do not deserve being tolerated. My previous mentions of tolerance were in comparing shades of one color to each other, if you look at the entire spectrum of opinion.

Now, how do I approach antisemitism of the Left? I am deeply troubled by it. I can see very clearly the origins of it in the Israeli-Palestine conflict, and the one-sidedness of the desire, in certain circles, to make the plight of Palestinians better, without really understanding the true complexity of things there. Under certain circumstances, such position grows into antisemitism.

Yet, I would NOT here equate all Left with liberals. I have a nice metaphor for the perennial liberal vs. conservative political struggle. Explaining it requires a separate post, and possible some graphical artistry - a picture is worth a thousand words. But in a nutshell the idea is that "liberal" is not an ideology that is constant regardless of the situation in a specific country. In my opinion, liberals, in each case choose positions which, in their opinion, move the country towards a certain "liberal ideal" - the latter being, in a fuzzy form, a constant. Thus you can see liberals in one country advocating one thing, while in another - a completely different one. It's a vector, not a point.

[cema.livejournal.com]

ACLU is a liberal organization in almost any reasonable definition, but my question was different.

I never said tolerance was absolute.

You never said anything about tolerance except that liberals are supposed to possess it.

there are some ideas that do not deserve being tolerated

Isn't the difference between conservatives and liberals more in the realm of what ideas they consider deserving of tolerance?

how do I approach antisemitism of the Left? I am deeply troubled by it.

Aren't we all... Golda Meir reported having been deeply hurt by her fellow Socialists with respect to the question of Zionism; I can only imaging how furious she would be had she seen what is going on these days.

[From the Arab-Israeli conflict] Under certain circumstances, such position grows into antisemitism.

What about anti-semitism of certain key figures of Enlightenment, like Voltair and Marx? Did it not affect the Left, or perhaps aren't there forces in existence now that were also present in earlier times which play out like that?

Yet, I would NOT here equate all Left with liberals.

Certainly, there must be a useful distinction. But what kind? Left vs Right could be reduced to the economical questions; where would the Liberal vs Conservative dichotomy lie then?

a picture is worth a thousand words

Or five hundred double words...

"liberal" is not an ideology that is constant regardless of the situation in a specific country. In my opinion, liberals, in each case choose positions which, in their opinion, move the country towards a certain "liberal ideal"

Were Republicans liberals in the 1860s due to the struggle against the slavery in the US? Were Democrats liberals in 1930s due to the struggle for building a social safety net? Do you call people who want to help Iraqis (or make Iraqis) build a free democratic country liberals? How about the environmentalists? What's your idea of the liberal ideal, in other words?

And, in contrast to liberals, what do you call conservatives? Or do you avoid this dichotomy?

[email-animal.livejournal.com]

I am tired to being constantly pushed to the margins of this discussion.
Here! http://www.livejournal.com/users/cema/126279.html?view=506439#t506439