"Some": an emergent article?

[cema]

Was in a cafe today, heard the waiter say: "I will be back with some menu".

Normal usage to me, but a friend (lives outside of the US) was amused. Like, will she just choose a random menu? Anyway, it does seem that "some" is often taking place of "a" in spoken American English. But does it qualify as an article? I wonder if linguists have anything to say about this.

Comments

[rqk.livejournal.com]

"Ща, типа, меню принесу" :)

[spamsink]

Elementary, my dear Watson! She'll be back with a few copies of the menu.

[vadim-i-z.livejournal.com]

Как там у Булгакова? "Чего-нибудь, и закусить!"

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rowan_tree_/]

Maybe "with some menus"?

[spamsink]

I don't think so. Either "a few menus" or "some menu".

[cema.livejournal.com]

That would have been "some menus".

In any case, "some" is often used where "a" would do. I wonder why.

[lindagraciela.livejournal.com]

Interesting. When the waiter brings it, you could respond "That's some menu!" , and (from my point of view), in this context "some" isn't at all taking place of an "a". Would rather be translated as "то еще меню".

What would you say, as a native speaker? Is there a way you can say "That's a menu", so that it would sound like "That's some menu"? Probably, a special intonation?

Languages are fascinating.

[cema.livejournal.com]

I am not a native speaker; learned written English as a teenageer, then some spoken English before and after coming in the US.

you could respond "That's some menu!"

:-) Indeed I could! "Вот так меню." I don't think she would get it, though.

Is there a way you can say "That's a menu", so that it would sound like "That's some menu"?

I don't know. Don't think so.

[flaass.livejournal.com]

> Is there a way...
Even if there was, she still wouldn't get it.

[spamsink]

AFAIK, if a noun is countable, and therefore has a plural, it is used with "a few".

Either she has a notion of a menu as an abstract set of all dishes offered in the restaurant, so the printed copy of a subset (lunch/dinner/etc.) becomes "some menu", or she does know the difference between "a few" and "some" English.

In any case, "some" is often used where "a" would do. I wonder why.

In any case, "rain" or "snow" are often used where "precipitation" would do. I wonder why.

[cema.livejournal.com]

Rain and snow: (1) are specifications of the more generic "precipitation"; (2) belong to the neutral style of speech, whereas "precipitation" is scientific.

By contrast, "some" is not a specification of "a", and both belong to the neutral speech style.

[cema.livejournal.com]

Oh, but she is a native speaker, or close to that. And a student in Harvard or thereabouts. The waiter, I mean. So she would get it, even if I would have had to explain it to her. ;-)

[spamsink]

Depends on how you look at it. "More than one" (some) is a specification of "(at least) one" (a).

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grisha/]

"Some" is, even in this usage, more of an adjective than an article. It means, roughly, that the menu will be a random one, not a particular one (in a slightly stronger sense than "a," as opposed to "the," would have conveyed). The usage in this instance is what I would call "borderline," i.e. many native speakers would probably need to hear the tone of voice and/or think about the sentence a bit in order to realize what was intended. I myself didn't take it seriously until I read in the comments that the speaker was native.

[cema.livejournal.com]

Native speakers say it all the time, really. "Give me some this or that". Interestingly, it seems (but I am not sure) as though it does not matter if the noun is countable or uncountable. Of course, "give me some salt" and "give me some menu" use different meanings of the word "some", but perhaps they become mingled now.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grisha/]

You hit the nail on the head with countable and uncountable, though I would probably prefer to say "words that have a plural form" for "countable" and "words that don't" for "uncountable." That way people can't make stupid comments like "what about 'money'?"

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grisha/]

Oops, I didn't read your comment carefully enough. I thought you said it does depend on whether the noun is "countable" or "uncountable," and in fact, I'm pretty sure it does. Some for an "uncountable" noun refers to an arbitrary amount, whereas some for a "countable" noun refers to an arbitrary item. Compare e.g. "some water" vs. "some whale." I do not think that these have mingled in the least. Yet another meaning emerges when a "countable" noun is used in the plural, in which case the word some does indeed become like a plural indefinite article (comparable, say, to unos in Spanish).

Explanation

[cema.livejournal.com]

You are talking about what is written in a textbook, and I am talking about what I hear on the street. Of course, grammatically modern English "some" is supposed to be used in a different way whether it refers to a countable or uncountable noun. But the language evolves, and I think we all can see that. (Might I add: and we should all see to it!)

Re: Explanation

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grisha/]

I agree with you entirely on the point of elementary textbooks vs. the real thing (which, however, might be found in a more advanced text on sociolinguistics or whatnot), though I'd like to mention that I am not referring to any textbook here, but purely to my analysis of English as I hear it. In fact, it seems to me, purely from thinking about it, that mingling the meanings of "some" for countable and uncountable nouns would produce results that make no sense, ranging from "I will be back with an arbitrary amount of menu" to "I will be back with a random water."

[cema.livejournal.com]

That last thing is what caused me to post this in the first place. Because I have actually heard it.

[cema.livejournal.com]

"What about money" is always a good comment. :-)

[dimpas.livejournal.com]

was the waiter talking to you? (or another non-native speaker)?

In my early days in English-speaking world (Australia)
I was mocked a couple of times, for my then horrible accent:
like: "Vill ju have ze..."

The use of "some" in place of "a" is a usual mistake of people whose mother tongue doesn't have articles, IMHO...

[cema.livejournal.com]

She was talking to me, but not mocking me or anyone, I think.

The use of "some" in place of "a" is a usual mistake of people whose mother tongue doesn't have articles, IMHO...

Would be interesting to see some corroborating evidence. :-)

[dimpas.livejournal.com]

it suffices to read scientific articles written in English by xUSSR folks.

Like "Let g be some element of G".
Even more frequent is the use of "some" as an "plural indefinite" article, i.e. using "some" before
a plural noun, like "some notions" instead of just "notions".

Some так иногда пишу :)

[cema.livejournal.com]

Happily, I have stopped reading such appers. On the other hand, I have had my share of papers written by Chinese scientists. Oy vey. On the other hand, the US (and Australia, but not Singapore) is the land of immigrants, so who knows how they will speak in 50 years. How we will speak, I should have said. ;-)

appers

[cema.livejournal.com]

Papers! This is not the way we will speak.

[dimpas.livejournal.com]

Singapore certainly is a land of immigrants. Singapore was a Malay island that brits have bought in late 19th century. They brought in chinese and tamils to build the harbour - the native population wasn't up to the task.
They have 4 official languages now...

Last but not the least for my humble self, I am about to move there (unless their INS decides that I'm too fishy to give me the permit) :)

mazzel,
d.

[dimpas.livejournal.com]

PS. their INS is called Ministry of Manpower.
So non-PC :)