Murder is not routine. Rape is rumored to be routine, but I have doubts.
A bit of torture at war may be healthy. Depends on what we call torture.
Yes, Israel is fighting an existential fight, which does not really excuse excesses, only explains them. I do not want to wait until the US and the rest of the modern world ("the West") is forced to fight an existential fight too. But it all can and should be done properly. If a crime is committed, it needs to be properly prosecuted. Should not be encouraged, too.
Crime is routine, certain extreme instances of it are an exception. If our standard allows torture and blowing up houses without a proper check of who is inside then it is natural to expect that on the extreme end we get murder and rape.
As for "If a crime is committed, it needs to be properly prosecuted. Should not be encouraged, too" - well, I don't know what to say. I am supposed to be an idealist, not you :-) There are many things that "shouldn't" happen, but happen in practice, are encouraged by the system, and are intertwined with the system so tightly that you can't really separate them. Every time you have a war like this (Iraq, Kosovo, Israel, Chechnya), same thing happens - torture and crimes. I don't know how to prevent this - vote for a government that's less likely to start a stupid war to begin with? Even that is often not an option, for a variety of reasons.
And yet rape by IDF is practically unknown. Why is that?
I used words like "needs" and "should". :-)
What makes a particular war stupid or not? Opinions differ. I hesitate to raise the case of Chamberlain and Churchill again, but my understanding is the position of Chamberlain was popular, whereas Churchill was practically alone among top British politicians who would condemn the pact. Often what makes a war popular is a victory, and not the rational reasoning about taking arms.
And yet rape by IDF is practically unknown. Why is that? - possibly because it's too close to home? Soldiers rape when they are occupants on lands that they are not going to see again. A soldier rapes a woman in his own country, then his potential child will be living in the same country, too - this possibility makes people very uncomfortable.
Often what makes a war popular is a victory - then a stupid war is one that has very little chance of victory - mmm, Iraq, maybe?
It's an interesting topic, but I would rather not go there. If we both agree that some wars are more stupid than others then we are on the same page (yes, it's a large page).
I should go and rake leaves in my yard before it starts snowing again (it did this morning). Hope the use of the word "should" here doesn't make me an idealist, but even if it does, I don't care. Talk to you later...
But rape by Arabs was not unheard of in the wars before Israel was established. Must be some other explanation.
Iraq has a very large chance of victory. But let's move back a little. France lost to Germany rather easily in WWII; does it mean it should not have fought?
We are on the same page, but one of us is reading it backwards! :-)
Just do not step on the rakes and everything will be fine!
Arabs consider rape to be shame to the victim. The victim is supposed to be killed by her relatives. There is no expectation that she will have a baby. Maybe that's the reason that rape is perceived differently in Arab world?
France lost to Germany rather easily in WWII; does it mean it should not have fought? - waaait a second, France was attacked! In this case even a small chance is a good chance.
I didn't step on the rake and even managed not to get frozen - that was much more challenging!
Если Вы где-то у меня нашли что-то о справедливости, то Вы ошиблись. Разговор шел исключительно о том, что в каком мире принято и почему.
Историю эту я читала. Подтверждает она именно то, что я сказала - что жертва изнасилования подвергается наказанию (поскольку женщина в данной ситуации замужняя, убить ее при желании должен муж, поэтому прочие родственники не вмешиваются). Обсуждать этическую сторону дела я сейчас не буду, поскольку и раньше не ее обсуждала.
А какое отношение к дискуссии имеет мир в Израиле, я вообще не понимаю.
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no subject
A bit of torture at war may be healthy. Depends on what we call torture.
Yes, Israel is fighting an existential fight, which does not really excuse excesses, only explains them. I do not want to wait until the US and the rest of the modern world ("the West") is forced to fight an existential fight too. But it all can and should be done properly. If a crime is committed, it needs to be properly prosecuted. Should not be encouraged, too.
no subject
As for "If a crime is committed, it needs to be properly prosecuted. Should not be encouraged, too" - well, I don't know what to say. I am supposed to be an idealist, not you :-) There are many things that "shouldn't" happen, but happen in practice, are encouraged by the system, and are intertwined with the system so tightly that you can't really separate them. Every time you have a war like this (Iraq, Kosovo, Israel, Chechnya), same thing happens - torture and crimes. I don't know how to prevent this - vote for a government that's less likely to start a stupid war to begin with? Even that is often not an option, for a variety of reasons.
no subject
I used words like "needs" and "should". :-)
What makes a particular war stupid or not? Opinions differ. I hesitate to raise the case of Chamberlain and Churchill again, but my understanding is the position of Chamberlain was popular, whereas Churchill was practically alone among top British politicians who would condemn the pact. Often what makes a war popular is a victory, and not the rational reasoning about taking arms.
no subject
Often what makes a war popular is a victory - then a stupid war is one that has very little chance of victory - mmm, Iraq, maybe?
It's an interesting topic, but I would rather not go there. If we both agree that some wars are more stupid than others then we are on the same page (yes, it's a large page).
I should go and rake leaves in my yard before it starts snowing again (it did this morning). Hope the use of the word "should" here doesn't make me an idealist, but even if it does, I don't care. Talk to you later...
no subject
Iraq has a very large chance of victory. But let's move back a little. France lost to Germany rather easily in WWII; does it mean it should not have fought?
We are on the same page, but one of us is reading it backwards! :-)
Just do not step on the rakes and everything will be fine!
no subject
France lost to Germany rather easily in WWII; does it mean it should not have fought? - waaait a second, France was attacked! In this case even a small chance is a good chance.
I didn't step on the rake and even managed not to get frozen - that was much more challenging!
в тему
CNN сообщает.
Внимание, вопрос!
После прочтения подумайте и угадайте какой мир палестинцы в состоянии предложить Израилю?..
Re: в тему
Историю эту я читала. Подтверждает она именно то, что я сказала - что жертва изнасилования подвергается наказанию (поскольку женщина в данной ситуации замужняя, убить ее при желании должен муж, поэтому прочие родственники не вмешиваются). Обсуждать этическую сторону дела я сейчас не буду, поскольку и раньше не ее обсуждала.
А какое отношение к дискуссии имеет мир в Израиле, я вообще не понимаю.
Re: в тему
2) Я с Вами не спорила.
3) Ну что ж, очень жалко.
Не совсем в тему
Совсем не в тему
Ну дык
Re: Ну дык
А я бы ответила: "А как ты догадался?..."
Re: Ну дык